sa+sidewinder.. {Yes please}

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by poweryoga
You keep saying "SE said it".... I'd like to see the interview for the sidewinder statement.

No interview necessary.

Last I checked, other people judge you and see how you act and decide if you're being condescending towards other people. but you're saying the only one allowed to judge you is yourself? Other people who judge you are "self absorbed"? God forbid people judge you for the way you're acting.

Other people can judge however the hell they want. I know I certainly do. What I DON'T do, however, is complain about it at the same time I'm DOING it.

Wasn't this the page of debate? The one that has like 3-4 months worth of data collecting, damage forumla speculation, 10+ pages of the proof that you're simply throwing out the window because you can't read japanese?

I can't read Japanese, so I have asked (four times and counting) for anyone that can read Japanese to cite what part of that site shows the data that supports the conclusion that Sidewinder is 5x damage. I don't see anything on that site that even remotely looks like a damage log.

Why don't you show some data to back up your statement that sidewinder is indeed 4x damage?

Again, I think I'll defer to Squenix for now. If you're saying that Squenix is wrong, the onus is on you to prove it, not on me to prove that the makers of the game know what they are talking about.

[imac2much]

There is indeed a softcap for damage concerning attack and defense

My damage did increase when I used meat mithkabob, so I mistakenly assumed I did not hit damage cap. Of course, it was because of the addition of STR and not because of my +ATK, as can be seen here:



So instead, let's take a monster where my shots do vary as an example, but which is still low enough that I don't have to worry about its defense nor vit very much. I chose Tavnazian sheep because it was easy to get to from Bastok (I have outpost teleport to Valkurm).

My normal shots varied, and berserk pumped up my attacks. Obviously there is no damage cap.



These sheep are pretty low level, probably around 30 or so. Suffice to say, they have been TWTBW for a while. As you can see, my damage is not capped, from the variance of my shots and also the fact that Berserk increased my damage greatly. And yet, 280x4 = 1120, even though my Sidewinder damage is 1739.

How exactly are you going to explain this? Your ambiguous VIT explanation, which you have absolutely no idea about? It's ridiculous to think that a level 30 sheep's defense reduced over 500 damage from *one shot*.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
And thanks for being the judge of what does and does not cross the line.

Wait, I thought this tangent was about MY self-absorption?

Self-awareness and self-absorption are two different things. I think you are not aware how arrogant and demeaning you sound. You could be self-absorbed with yourself yet aware that you are. No, I think you an asshole to people, but you just don't realize it.

I agree that you can have your own choice of who to be an ass to and whatnot. That doesn't make you any less of an ass.

Tell you what... since you are the one claiming that Squenix doesn't know WTF they are talking about, I think the onus of proof is on you.

To quote you, "surely you cannot be this blind." When did I ever say that the 5x multiplier is true? Why do I have to prove it's true? From the second page of this thread:

Originally posted by imac2much
I don't care whether you want to believe it is 4x or 5x at all.

From the third page of this thread:

Originally posted by imac2much
4x? 5x? Does it really matter? Not really, but you're the one who brought light to this silly debate in the first place.

I don't need to prove it is 5x. All I am doing here is trying to open your goddamn closed eyes. Just because you believe something is true doesn't make it right. You yourself admitted that S-E can be wrong, when I presented the WS description of Swift Blade (which is incorrect).

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
1) My position has never been that Squenix can't be wrong, but just that if one is going to claim something that contradicts one of their statements, one better have a damn solid foundation to make such a claim. Without any evidence for why the cited site thinks Sidewinder is 5X, it is only logical to defer to Squenix.

And I did subsequently give you solid foundations why it is incorrect, to which you threw some B.S. you thought of at the last minute like "well I guess VIT somehow is reduced from sidewinder four times even though it's one hit oh wait I'm contradicting myself but no I am never wrong" or something? Hell if I know.

The direct statement of Sidewinder's properties from the makers of the game is really all the proof I need. Even if you conclusively disprove my single-defense-subtraction explanation of the help text, that does jack-sh*t to provide any sort of reason to believe that Sidewinder is 5X.

So what? I don't care if it is 5x either. Why the hell do you think I do? I only cite that website to show you that some testing HAS been done, more than you or I will ever do. I don't care if it is 5x personally. I'm just showing you that, yes, you can be wrong. But can you admit it? That's the 100million gil question here.

Need proof that S-E can be wrong? Fine. In this example I am using my Paladin to show how their Swift Blade weapon skill description is incorrect. I am subbing THF and using Dainslaif instead of Joyeuse so I don't get a random double attack in my WS to mess up my results.

Swift Blade description:


Swift Blade @ 100-110% TP:


Swift Blade @ 300% TP:


The TP return for each WS was 8, so the same number of hits connected. For some reason, the WS did not do more damage at 300% like the description said... strange isn't it? For shame, S-E WS descriptions could be wrong? Gasp gasp!

If you're wrong Dan, just admit it instead of conjuring some BS to run away. I already proved your litte theory of '4x damage, 1xhit worth of defense subtracted' wrong. I don't care if it is 5x or not. The point is, the description can be wrong, and in this case, probably is wrong.

[Apple Pie]

Rugal, I took a look at your screen shots. Great data.

Anyway, in your case,

LV56
STR 64
AGI 77
Bow D = 71
Arrow D = 24

Let me place these numbers into the formula we currently have.

D = 71 + 24 = 95
fSTR2 = int (Bow D / 9 + 8) x 2 = 31 --- When (STR - VIT) is capped
WS = int (64 x 0.16 + 77 x 0.25) x Alpha (0.90 at LV60)
fTP = 5 (That's why we call Sidewinder "x5.")

I'm sure your attack against Tunnel Worm is capped and the (ATK / DEF) multiplier is, thus, x3 (the largest number for ranged attack while it is 2.4 for melee).

(95 + 31 + 26) x 3 x 5 = 2280

Sidewinder = 2265 ~ 2275

Not bad.

Oh well, it seems to me in game description is just a description. What do they have for Viper Bite? Is the damage really doubled? I don't know but it doesn't seem to be.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
Let me place these numbers into the formula we currently have.

D = 71 + 24 = 95
fSTR2 = int (Bow D / 9 + 8) x 2 = 31 --- When (STR - VIT) is capped

Based on his later screenshot, it doesn't seem that STR-VIT is capped, because adding STR increased his damage.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by imac2much
And yet, 280x4 = 1120, even though my Sidewinder damage is 1739.

Why do you continue to multiply your normal shot and think you will get a meaningful answer?

No damage model for Sidewinder works when you simply multiply the damage of a normal shot. Whatever Sidewinder's damage is, it certainly isn't that.

How exactly are you going to explain this? Your ambiguous VIT explanation, which you have absolutely no idea about?

It doesn't even apply here. VIT came up because you were talking about comparing Sidewinder's damage against a high VIT mob (crab) vs. a low VIT mob (crawler). The higher VIT of the crab should mean that the base damage value (the value that is x4'ed by Sidewinder) will be lower against a crab than against a crawler. Multiply them both by 4, subtract the target's defense once.

I think you are not aware how arrogant and demeaning you sound.

Interesting, seeing as how I've stated that when I do it, it's intentional.

From the second page of this thread:

I don't care whether you want to believe it is 4x or 5x at all.

If you really don't care, why have you been posting for 3 pages?

And I did subsequently give you solid foundations why it is incorrect, [...]

That's great, but what I asked for was proof that it was 5X. Let me make this little detail perfectly clear:

Every single point you have made against Sidewinder being 4X damage is even more applicable to it being 5X damage.

So what do you believe? Nothing at all? Wonderful. That's very helpful.

Need proof that S-E can be wrong? Fine. In this example I am using my Paladin to show how their Swift Blade weapon skill description is incorrect.

Why are you trying to prove something I already agreed upon? I presume that in the process of writing your post, you did notice when you quoted the part where I said that my position has never been that Squenix can't be wrong.

Would you like me to post logs of 20+ WSes where the description DOES match what they do? Would that suddenly change your mind?

The argument is not whether or not Squenix can be wrong (they can), but whether or not they are on Sidewinder.

[Apple Pie]

Based on his later screenshot, it doesn't seem that STR-VIT is capped, because adding STR increased his damage.

This means fSTR is going to decrease. "int (Bow D / 9 + 8) x 2" is just a maximum number.

if it is, let's say, 30 instead of 31. The expected damage of Sidewinder is 2265 - perfectly matches the number shown on Rugal's screen shot.

[Spider-Dan]

Actually, after thinking about it, I think I know why your formula works with x5 instead of x4.

I won't be able to test it until at least tomorrow night, so I fully expect to be vigorously flamed for most of the day, until I can get the test data.

[Apple Pie]

If any of RNG75s here are willing to post the typical damage of Sidewinder against the weakest creature, I'd like to see it. Please again remember to attach your stats and gears.

Anyway, there may be another formula suitable for Sidewinder with fTP x4.00 but we haven't found it yet. A lot of people have presented their damage samples on our Verifying Threads (検証スレ) for two years but the one I used (= Rugal posted on PLD's forum) is most accurate (but not perfect yet) so far.

As for in-game descriptions, there are few exceptions that seem to be different from what we think of like Viper Bite. I'm not sure what is actually going to be doubled. I hope some of new books that are going to be released will reveal some of hidden formulas. It's fun to do a lot of research but it prevents me from leveling my RDM...

[Apple Pie]

Actually, after thinking about it, I think I know why your formula works with x5 instead of x4.

Yup, you guys seemed to be too much excited. We should calm down a little...

In fact, "x5" works on the formula Studio Gobli finalized. I'm the one letting Rugal know about it.

Therefore, those who get used to that formula call Sidewinder "Quintuple (五�撃)." However, there might be some reason it is described as "quadruple." There may be the perfect formula to use x4.00 multiplier somewhere. It might be because it does x4.00 damage of some WSs. It might be because we hear the sound like "bomb-bomb-bomb-bomb!" I don't know.

Anyway, I'm not interested in how it's called though. Sidewinder is Sidewinder, which seems to be the strongest WS.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Why do you continue to multiply your normal shot and think you will get a meaningful answer?

No damage model for Sidewinder works when you simply multiply the damage of a normal shot. Whatever Sidewinder's damage is, it certainly isn't that.

Because that's the only damn thing you can come up with. Wait, I thought your damage model relied on the ingame description? Or did you post some other formulae and testing while I was looking in another direction?

It doesn't even apply here. VIT came up because you were talking about comparing Sidewinder's damage against a high VIT mob (crab) vs. a low VIT mob (crawler). The higher VIT of the crab should mean that the base damage value (the value that is x4'ed by Sidewinder) will be lower against a crab than against a crawler. Multiply them both by 4, subtract the target's defense once.

And where do you get this from? Nowhere. You're pulling it out of your ass, but you state it as if it were fact. Much like you state any ideas you have.

Interesting, seeing as how I've stated that when I do it, it's intentional.

I thought you were the one denying you are haughty? But anyway just because you realize you're being an ass doesn't make you any less of an ass.

If you really don't care, why have you been posting for 3 pages?

I thought I answered this ad nauseum. At first I only posted to show that 4x damage was not necessarily correct. At the moment I'm only posting to see if you can ever admit you are wrong. Seems like you can't.

The argument is not whether or not Squenix can be wrong (they can), but whether or not they are on Sidewinder.

Congratulations for realizing the point of this thread! And from all my posts and Apple Pie's posts, it can be proven that it IS wrong.

Seeing as how we have already shown how 4x does NOT work, and Apple Pie has even provided evidence how 5x DOES work, when will you ever be satisfied? Instead of just admitting that you might be wrong (gasp), you are only making excuses and irrelevant rationalizations. We are providing your precious data, counterevidence, and "data models." What have you provided other than your theories and ideas? Or are you saying since you are Dan, you can prevent crap with nothing to back it up except your word... "this is the way it works and if you don't like it shut up!" Counterevidence please.

I am eager to see your test data since it will be the first you have provided in this entire thread.

I agree with Apple Pie that it only says quadruple damage because it shows 4 piercing arrow animations with the "bomb-bomb-bomb-bomb!" sound effect.

[Anakron]

I think all along, the thing Spider-Dan had going was something like "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," after which he created (and revised) a "damage model" that agreed with the WS's description. And yes, I agree that any claim directly contradicting Square-Enix's words to be somewhat extraordinary and basic science follows this method (i.e., make a model that agrees with all known facts, and revise model as new facts come up that disagree with the existing model. You tear down the model and start anew when enough unexplainable discrepancies have been posed). However, when Rugal proved that Square-Enix was wrong with the case of Swift Blade, it makes the previously extraordinary claims against Square-Enix's words less so. As a result, less evidence would be needed to "prove" that Sidewinder is x5 and not x4.

That said, I think what's really being debated (aside from Spider-Dan's tone) here is how much evidence exactly is needed to "prove" that the description on Sidewinder is incorrect. For me, the provided evidence seems to be pointing towards x5 (yes, I change my mind quickly, especially when pretty equations are brought into the picture :p).

[Spider-Dan]

After doing some testing of my own, the results that I got plugged into the formula and the predicted answer matched the real one, so I guess that's that.

The only question I have for Apple Pie is, why did you use only the Bow D for fSTR in the version of the formula you posted? The translated version of the formula in the other thread says "D" for that spot, and for the first part of the formula, you use Bow+Arrow DMG as "D."

If you include Bow+Arrow D in that slot, the TP multiplier would need to be less than 5 in order to compensate. With possible tweaking, you might end up with 4.

But essentially, that's all speculation. I don't have anywhere near the mathematical expertise to try to reverse-engineer this formula to work with x4 and bow+arrow D, so as of right now, the most reliable calculation uses x5 as the multiplier.

I'd like to point out three things, though:

1) All of the "120 x 4 = ???" objections were (and are) totally irrelevant, since 120 x 5 still doesn't match Sidewinder's real damage;
2) The translated equation given in the other thread does not work (Apple Pie supplied a different one that does);
3) In the absence of any better explanation, the best option is to go with Squenix's word.

With all that being said, yes, I was wrong, and Sidewinder's multiplier appears to be x5 (in the absence of any better equation that uses x4).

However, this doesn't change the fact that had anyone actually tried the equation given in the other thread, they would have found that it didn't work, yet no one made this objection.

Unless there is a better explanation available (which I asked for four times, and Apple Pie was nice enough to provide), it's ridiculous to just assume that Squenix is wrong by default. For every case that someone can cite where Squenix is wrong, I can cite a hundred where they aren't.

P.S. Sidewinder's animation has five "hits" (and "booms"); one when you fire, then three, then one more at the end.

[Apple Pie]

Spider, I believe I included both "Bow D" and "Arrow D."

Let's take a look at the one I did.

> Rugal: LV56
> STR 64
> AGI 77
> Bow D = 71
> Arrow D = 24

> D = 71 + 24 = 95
> fSTR2 = int (Bow D / 9 + 8) x 2 = 31 --- When (STR - VIT) is
> capped
> WS = int (64 x 0.16 + 77 x 0.25) x Alpha (0.90 at LV60)
> fTP = 5 (That's why we call Sidewinder "x5.")

The base damage is calculated by
(D + fSTR2 + WS)

> (95 + 31 + 26) x 3 x 5 = 2280

Yes, I did include "Arrow D" to get D95. I guess you are wondering why I didn't include "Arrow D" into fSTR2. Well, I think both Gobli and Rugal may want to add more details to their chart.



This is the summary of our Verifying Thread 6 (2003.12.18 - 2004.3.11). As shown, fSTR2 doesn't count Arrow D. "D" of "D / 9" always comes from our main weapon (when we dual wield, we have both "Dm / 9" and "Ds / 9").

By the way, the last multiplier, "x1.25" is in case it is a critical hit. So, typical damage of Sidewinder when fSTR2 is capped is,

[D (Bow + Arrow) + fSTR2 + WS] x 3 x 5

[Apple Pie]

2) The translated equation given in the other thread does not work

Woops, I took a look at the one in PLD's forum but there's something missing T_T

Rugal, would you please translate and add these two lines to yours?
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/...u/addition.gif

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
1) All of the "120 x 4 = ???" objections were (and are) totally irrelevant, since 120 x 5 still doesn't match Sidewinder's real damage

I can't believe this. How many times do I have to repeat myself? I never said x4 or x5 worked with this simple equation. Suffice to say it was the only so-called "damage model" that you provided. So why aren't you subject to your own standards? You said it is "quadruple damage, defense subtracted once" and all I did was prove you wrong. Even if the 5x was NOT proven, I did prove YOU wrong and you just refused to admit it. Now after 6 pages of excuses and rationalization, you FINALLY acknowledge that even the almighty spider-dan can make a mistake.

2) The translated equation given in the other thread does not work (Apple Pie supplied a different one that does)

It's the same basic equation. The one in the translated thread does not have the caps, that is why it doesn't work. There is a softcap and a hardcap for both STR-VIT check and ATK-DEF check, but my Japanese was not (and still isn't) good enough to translate those equations on the other threads Apple Pie had linked to me, so I didn't include those. I assumed that since people won't be hitting those caps in XP PT's, the data I could translate would have to suffice.

3) In the absence of any better explanation, the best option is to go with Squenix's word.

Not when it's been proven wrong -_-

With all that being said, yes, I was wrong, and Sidewinder's multiplier appears to be x5 (in the absence of any better equation that uses x4).

This is the first time I've ever seen you admit you were wrong, so thank you. Your tone still sounds like you're making excuses for your actions though.

However, this doesn't change the fact that had anyone actually tried the equation given in the other thread, they would have found that it didn't work, yet no one made this objection.

Why did we have to? All we were doing was proving you and S-E's ingame description wrong. Why does that mean we have to prove some other theory just to prove that your theory was wrong? I don't have to prove ANY alternate theory right and you'll still be wrong.

Unless there is a better explanation available (which I asked for four times, and Apple Pie was nice enough to provide), it's ridiculous to just assume that Squenix is wrong by default.

Since *WHEN* did we say it was wrong by default? WHEN?? It's wrong because the 4x "damage model" doesn't work in any available formula. We didn't just say "S-E says sidewinder is 4x. They've got to be wrong."

P.S. Sidewinder's animation has five "hits" (and "booms"); one when you fire, then three, then one more at the end.

If that's the case (and very likely, I admit I have not looked at the animation too closely) I can't think of any reason why it says quadruple damage except for a simple mistake by the developers with no proper rationalization.

It really feels like I'm just repeating myself over and over to a little child who wants to live in his little fantasy land until someone beats him back down to reality. How many times do I have to repeat this:

I never claimed it was 5x. I said I don't even care if it is 5x. I said you shouldn't harrass other people for thinking it is 5x because there is *as much if not more* proof that it is 5x than 4x. All *YOU* had was a "theory" you made up that I repeatedly proved wrong, and S-E's ingame description, which was also proven wrong (no matter how many ways you cut it, it doesn't do quadruple damage).

Why can't you just say you're wrong and leave it at that? What's with all these rationalizations for your actions and flames? We know and you acknowledged you are an arrogant know-it-all, so you don't really have to cover it up. I'll even help you. Here's what you could have written to apologize without sounding like an idiot:

"Ah, I see that this equation works with some recent data I gathered for Sidewinder. I'm sorry I argued so vehemently on this subject, but I just found it ridiculous people were arguing with the game's own description. However, looking back on the several posts in this thread, I see that both my initial theory and the ingame description have been proven wrong several times. Nobody is perfect, everyone can be wrong at times, so thank you for enlightening me on this topic."

That has a tone that your posts severely lack: Courtesy and respect. You should try it sometime. Look at all your responses to Rones, Timoham, me, etc on Page 2 and 3, and how arrogant and demeaning they all are. And yet the intial posts from us that you responded so haughtily towards carried no animosity nor disrespect. Why must you sound so condescending? Reading the posts, it seems you think you know everything, and everyone else is inferior to you. If you responded to people with more respect, perhaps you would get more respect as well.

Regardless, I thank Apple Pie for his help.

Originally posted by Apple Pie
Woops, I took a look at the one in PLD's forum but there's something missing T_T

Rugal, would you please translate and add these two lines to yours?
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/...u/addition.gif

I'll try but I have to find my kanji dictionary :sweat: My kanji knowledge is still pretty lacking, but I'll add this tomorrow.